Ye old death thread…

This is a formatted version of a post I just made to the AbsoluteBDSM mailing list. It is archived here in case I need it. Go ahead, click the more link if you need to and bask in my wisdom.

Ed note: this is an off the cuff reply – I call it a "rant". It is not as well laid out or gone over as my essays. You will no doubt find it scattered and rushed. Life is hard.

From: Soulhuntre

To: AbsoluteBDSM

Subject: 3 minutes – about long enough…

You know, I have 28 replies in my drafts folders – most of them long point by point discussion of mostly the same hand wringing upset and "concern" that always happens in this conversation.

As usual, my lifestyle has now been mentioned as being the kind of thing that allows terrorists to thrive, Hitler to murder Jews and child molesters to roam the streets.

 As usual, some people are going on about how it is silly and pointless for us to discuss the authority structure that may allow for the death of a submissive and that those of us who feel that way are simply grandstanding in our own kink to get off.

 As usual, some OTHER people are saying that this is an evil so serious that it must be opposed and publicly condemned because it is simply unacceptable that some innocent may read these words and spontaneously be murdered by a passing serial killer with a flogger and a dream.

 And as usual there isn’t a chance in hell of coming to any agreement, or making any headway. If you wish to think I or others are sick, evil or ethically bankrupt – go for it. I don’t really care 🙂

What I DO find amusing is the constant push – the constant questions "but WHY do you feel this way, justify your ethical system to suit me, make sure you go into detail and support ever logical thought that led you to believe this is OK" when those who feel we are evil simply hold their own ethics as self evident.

I won’t speak for anyone else – I will simply say this as clearly as I can in a hurry…

Some thoughts on risk

  • I hold as SELF EVIDENT that humans have extremely broad latitude to decide how they will live their life. We can spend forever discussing where the edges of that latitude are and I will happily do so.
  • I feel that suicide is within the rights of a person to choose for themselves.
  • It makes logical sense then, TO ME, that if I am going to grant someone the right to kill themselves then I also grant them the right to engage in extremely risky behavior.
  • If I am going to give someone the right to kill themselves, then I grant them the right to allow another to kill them or to give another THE AUTHORITY to make that decision.
  • Acknowledging that someone has the RIGHT to do so does not mean I will always agree with their reasons for doing so, or support them in that choice.

Some thoughts on the old "you probably are only saying that"

Hell, most people are bullshitting in most of what they say. Of COURSE most "I would die for him" slaves would back out or balk. Hell, some COPS falter when the moment comes to risk themselves for an innocent. Some SOLDIERS falter at the last moment. People sometimes fail.

What I find amusing is that this type of statement draws so much anger and "no you wouldn’t!" finger pointing when "I would die for my children" doesn’t immediately bring people out of the woodwork yelling – "no you would not!".

Humans can only state what they truly believe. Like many moral tests and crisis – it is IMPOSSIBLE to >prove< in advance how a human will react.

Some thoughts on the APPARENT conflict between "he has the right" and "he wouldn’t"

The entire death thing comes down to a much, much simpler question.

In this time, in this moment, am I willing to substitute the judgment of this man/woman who is my owner/master for my own judgment? Do I trust them enough?

In the vast majority of cases where death is an authority factor the answer is "yes". If I ordered my property to take an action that may result or would result in her death it is my belief that she would take it not because she doesn’t care about the reasons for her death… but because she would simply TRUST that if I was issuing that order then the reasons were good enough.

She would only substitute my judgment for hers is because she knows and trusts that I will not kill her on a whim. That is a crucial catalyst in the environment that allows her to be in a phase/state (see note 1) that would not question my order.

The fact that she would not stop to question means that I COULD abuse that trust and issue an order that would result in her death on a whim. I >COULD< do that – just like I >COULD< start murdering strangers at a restaurant.

That she trusts my judgment and ethics to not include killing her for fun does not mean that the choice to trust me was a trivial one – or that it is easy and simple to make. Anytime one substitutes the judgment of someone else for your own it is a critical and important decision. To do so continuously in a long term relationship is significant.

For someone else, the ground rules may be less stringent. Someone else may well decide that their owner’s amusement is reason enough. I grant them the right to make that decision – just as I grant them the right to take their own life.

What would you do if?

A: "Would you die to defend your child?"

B: "yes"

A: "What if it was proven that your child was a murderer?"

B: "ummm… yes"

A: "so you defend Hitler!?"

B: "ummm… no"

A: "So you were lying when you said you would die to defend them!"

B: "No, my child would not become a murderer, I know him"

A: "I see, so your willingness to die for your child isn’t really important because you don’t think they will ever really test you by becoming a murderer!"

Please, spare me.

Personally? I don’t think anyone ever UNCONDITIONALLY promises anything. I just don’t think humans are capable of it. There is always something, some circumstance that may change their mind, their convictions or their choices. That reality – that somewhere out on the extremes exists a contradictory circumstance – is not a negation of what a human believes or is committed to.

I don’t expect anyone to say they will die at my order no matter what has happened to me in the interim or if I have lost my mind or if the structure we live in has crumbled. What I DO expect is that while they are my property they substitute my judgment for their own if there is no time to draw their own conclusion.

It’s simple… and complex 🙂

A: "Would you die to defend your country?"

B: "Yes."

A: "What if you found out your country was run by aliens bent on taking over the world?"

B: "Then no, I probably would not" (see note 2)

A: "So you would not die for your country?"

B: "Yes I would"

A: "so you defend Hitler?" (see note 3)

B: "ummm… no"

A: "liar!"

Anyway, I am dumping all my other pending replies.  I am happy to continue discussing the concepts behind a submissives decision to accept her dominants judgment in lieu of her own about even the necessity of her death or how much risk is acceptable.


  1. go see Ownership and metallurgy… (repost)  for more information on states as it applies to humans.
  2. I, for one, welcome our new alien overlords.
  3. Hitler would not have welcomed our new alien overlords. He was funny like that.




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